ThanksPaul -------------------------1983 Mercedes 240D on R12 and WVO!1192 Mercedes 300D 2.5 R134a1993 Toyota Pickup converted to R134a. I'm not sure. If there is no pusher fan, and you have the room, put one in. Answer: OK, I'll bite. Its chemical symbol is CCl2F2. What was the ambient when you took that reading?Jumpering the aux fan is a common thing here in the desert. The best replacement for R134a is R1234yf, while R12 refrigerant replacement was R134a. It can be used applications like walk-in coolers, food and dairy display cases, domestic refrigerators, and beverage dispensers and vending machines. This refers to BTU's (heat) moved per pound of refrigerant moved. Als nostres webs oferimOne Piece,Doctor Who,Torchwood, El Detectiu ConaniSlam Dunkdoblats en catal. It will work and there will be very little, in any difference in performance.As Chick stated, the difference is only the gas used in the sensor tube. Though I have seen em run as cold as 12 deg F. If the thermo switch is malfunctioning. In large application systems, the vapor density of this refrigerant is usually high. The adjusted tension of this spring is the determining factor in the opening and closing of the expansion valve. Poc temps desprs van decidir unir els dos webs sota el nom de Xarxa Catal, el conjunt de pgines que oferirien de franc sries doblades i/o subtitulades en catal. There are two hoses listed, R-12 64-53-1-377-821 for $72.50, and R-134a 64-53-8-391-051 fro $262.50. Look at where the lines will end up. Blows pretty hard on full. At 2000rpm, windows open, highest fan, hi pressure stabilized at 225 psi, low 25psi.Ambient 81F, vent 61F. 2) Frost on the Vents. . Reattach the hose lines using new R134a compatible o-rings, lightly lubricate with compressor oil. What is usually sniffed are all the connections in the system: hoses and compressor, condenser, drier, expansion valve and evaporator fittings. It's actually a reaction with chlorine in the mineral oil that may have been absorbed and leftover from the old R-12. What effect would it have on performance, if any?At the moment, the ac is acting up - will work fine for about 15 minutes and then slowly the vent temperatures rise until the compressor switches off. Read on for more information about using automotive r134a in a refrigerator and vice versa. Add to cart. You will be fine with a 134a-compatible TXV running R12. Flushed, vacuumed etc. 1) Look Here at the available sizes of PF condensors.2) Go look at your vehicle's condensor & mounting. Therefore, the R12 refrigerant is illegal, and emitting it is illegal. For example, if your system originally had 36 ounces of R12 then you multiply that by .80 and you have 29 ounce of R134a. When ever possible you should ask the technician to note the same information on your repair bill and keep a copy in your glove box for future reference. You do not have to split up the 5-6 oz of oil and add it to each component, just simply put it all in the compressor as it will move throughout the whole system once the system is operational. R 134A is designed for the high demands of an automobile AC and cannot be used on refrigerators due to pressure differences. The problem with using an approved alternative refrigerants other than R134a is that when the system is serviced it requires certain types of fittings, labels and dedicated equipment. You can spend long evenings reading about the differences between the two refrigerants. It's best to determine on a case-by-case basis while monitoring system pressures and output air temperature. evarporator, expansion valve plus flushing out the full system and replacing all the o rings. (You must log in or sign up to reply here. Lasers don't do well on vent temps, a stick thermometer is better in that application. The analysis focuses on Coefficient of Performance for . -------------------------1983 Mercedes 240D on R12 and WVO!1192 Mercedes 300D 2.5 R134a1993 Toyota Pickup converted to R134a, Hi pdrayton- If you can remember the oil capacity that you found in all your research and post that, then bohica and others can have a better idea if you have too much; see if you can find that info! And yes - expansion valves sometimes need replacing if they are sticky - but a proper AC flush should eliminate the need for a new one if it's already in good condition. Then when it is switched off for a few minutes and then back on, the air cools again. Yes, this was a smokers car. 34 in 70 series w/ R12 in 100+ Tucson, AZ summer heat w/ hd-t, w/ 13B-T is was unbearable about 31 at vent w/ R12. PaulJerky King -------------------------1983 Mercedes 240D on R12 and WVO!1192 Mercedes 300D 2.5 R134a1993 Toyota Pickup converted to R134a. Consider using the newer valve, even with 134a stamped on the valve. Pound for pound R134a is a more efficient refrigerant than R12, however it runs at higher pressures in some aspects and therefore requires more effective condensing. It is made up of carbon, hydrogen, and fluorine. ESP when a compressor has frozen. Bohica, I appreciate your help with this. By after changing just about everything, he got what was termed, satisfactory cooling. Also, if you want to know what happens if you put R134a in an R12 system, you should first confirm if the R12 system can be replaced or if the refrigerants can be mixed. All fans must work at 100% of the OEM rating. They should be able to keep you comfortable on a long trip, but don't expect vent frost in 3 minutes or lesss.2) Too much oil can reduce cooling capacity, and the effect is not linear. Yes, the 50F diff (160-110F) on the condenser was at idle, and ambient was about 90F. If it splashes inside the eye, it could lead to a serious eye problem. Is there a difference between a R134a expansion valve and an R12 TXV? leading to corrosion of expansion valves, capillary tube plugging, and compressor bearing . Use a strong surfactant like Simple Green or Zep Citrus, and soak the fins on the condensor. Attach the R134a charge port adaptors, there are two types.. one of which you need to remove the old R12 valve cores. Safe but sorry! You can also check the Aux fan in your case. The chemical composition of R12 and R134a differ. Paul:A 1983 240D should have a York compressor on an OEM system. At 40, it is 35psi, which is a difference of 8.9psi. Besides, its technology has been tested and trusted. Theres no doubt that R12 refrigerant is one of the first compounds manufactured for the air conditioning and refrigeration world, but it had to be banned. #4. AFAIK, there is no clutch on the engine fan on the 240D. We, the Rxmechanic team, have presented a well-detailed comparison of R134a vs. R12. The symbol implies that R12 is a composite of carbon, chlorine, and fluorine. Generally this works well for the whole system. Mark Baker R-401b is the mixture by weight of 61% R22, 11% R-152a and 28% of R-124. From memory, I put in at least 8 ounces of oil, probably around 10 ounces in there. Whenever its exposed to the environment, it changes to a gas. Compared with the cost-performance ratio, R507 is 30-40% . In the automotive world, the replacement for R12 was R134a. 4.3 out of 5 stars 491. R134a requires a different oil. Compatible with multiple applications: The major reason for the introduction of R134a was to replace R12, so it functions perfectly in the same range of applications like rotary, screw, and centrifugal compressors for air conditioning and refrigeration. The reason is that the vehicles, for instance, manufactured currently configure the engine for R1234yf refrigerant, making no provision for replacement. difference between r12 and r134a expansion valve . Its duty is to convert toxic gasses produced by the engine into A brake cleaner is a powerful solvent for cleaning dirt from the brakes and other car components. To ensure the right charge, you must fill the new system with between 75 and 85% of the factory-set capacity for optimal cooling. The crossover point is approximately at 64F. The larger fitting goes on the discharge port and the smaller fitting goes on the suction line or compressor inlet / suction port. 30 deg is pretty coldSystems generally run between 40 and 43 deg. It is usually sold under the brand name, Freon 12. . This is due to many facts: R134a refrigerant is about 10% less efficient in moving heat than R12! The condensor airflow drops off as the fan clutch dies slowly. I just got some hi/lo side gauges so I'm going to take readings, if they are needed. Condensers designed to release greater amounts of heat help to expel the greater amount of heat which R134a removes from the cars interior. One of the differences between auto air conditioners that have been redesigned from R12 to R134a is that the condensers have gone from serpentine to pseudo-parallel. I'm curiousSo there is work to do, ie performance should be able to be improved. In a car ac, using this type of freon 20 years ago was difficult. Skin contact: If the R134a (liquid) comes in contact with your skin, it could cause a burn. In no particular order, here's what I've found out regarding answering the questions posed so far:Fonebone - It is definitely an R4 compressor (they left the c off the front and the p off the end, i.e. system of 0.33 TR and refrigerant used was R12. I'm thinking of jumping the temp switch and leaving the fan on to see how it does. Until 1995, most cars with air conditioning used R-12 Freon refrigerant which has shown to have an environmental impact. After the optimum refrigerant charge is determined the car should be test driven to check for performance of the system. Anyone know what happens when an R12 expansion valve is used in a system charged with R134A? Refrigerators generally utilize R22, R32, or 410A-based coolants as their cooling agent. Usually, mechanics charge around $200 for conversion. Vent temperatures slowly go down to around 50F with hi speed driving. I'm also thinking maybe I should go to R134 - it might work better with the right amount of oil and the correct expansion valve. Its chemical symbol is CCl2F2. So you could likely put off buying those new hoses just a bit longer if you wanted. The crossover point is approximately at 64F. What is a T/C?4. The non-flammables can have R22 type gas which is not compatible with most rubber hoses or they have gases that contribute to global warming. It cycles on off in med (or low for that matter)Gotta tell ya. I don't want to be chasing ghosts. and he synthesized R-134a in 1936, 5 years after R-12 was . Depending on which circuit diagram fits your car (cough, no vin list exists) you have either one or two switches controlling the aux fan. There are other refrigerants: some of which may work, some of which dont work, some of which will destroy your a/c system and some of which are dangerous. Low refrigerating effect per pound: In comparison to other refrigerants, the refrigerating effect of R12 per pound is low. But, what is considered a good temperature differential across the condensor? The old compressor used R12 and the new unit will be R134a. CONCLUSIONS The differences in the theoretical C.O.P.H calculated for R12 and R134a are consistent with values quoted in the literature. I would not do a 134a conversion without a PF condensor. First, differences in physical properties: 1, insoluble R12 compressor oil is used (to reduce the lubricant) 2, dissolved sealing materials are used (resulting in refrigerant leakage) 3, easy to damp (so easy to internal . Bad Car A/C Expansion Valve Symptoms. It is possible I have 10 ounces (250 ml) in the system. All pre-97 XJs use systems with the same basic operating principle, although the parts do change a bit. Well, I'm not sure it is 'fine' - it doesn't cool very well in 95F weather. R-134a XV for R-134a use. ~ Mahatma Gandhi, Gandhi, An Autobiography, M. K. Gandhi, page 446. Best for varieties of operating conditions: Its boiling point is -21.6 Celsius. we convert older systems where i work all the time and they work fine. The Wikipedia explanation for expansions valves cited in Frank's thread says that the gas inside the bulb in the metering valve is the same as the refrigerant in the system. This is an electronic tool that sucks in air through a tube and across a sensor. It is made up of carbon, hydrogen, and fluorine. But, if your car lacks enough condenser and you have many 100+ degree days then you may want to stick either increase air flow, add another condenser as we mentioned in The Mr. Ice Project or stick with R12. Accessories Pumps, Cooling Towers, Evap Condensers, etc, Components Valves, Motors, Condensers, Evaporators, etc, Duct Systems Design, Installation & Practice, Piping Systems Design, Installation & Practice, Control System Design, Installation & Practice, Pro's Forum: National Electrical Code (NEC), Pro's Forum: Calculations & Electrical Theory, Pro's Forum: Electrical Business & Marketing. That switch should close @ 52c. Disconnect the two hose lines to the compressor, protect the ends from getting dirty. A final difference is that most (though not all) R-1234yf cars will have a Suction Line Heat Exchanger. difference between r12 and r134a expansion valve. R12, on the other hand, is called chlorofluorocarbon (CFC). Also the new quick connect fittings for the high & low side. Can I use the one for the R-12? . Thus, when the system is running, condensing the CO2 is not a problem. Sense ells no existirem. Anyone know what happens when an R12 expansion valve is used in a system charged with R134A? The cable is adjustable at the valve arm. However, if it is taken close to a fire flame or any electrical heating element, it disintegrates into toxic products. But as there's not a big difference, people say you can suffice with either. of coiled cap tube on VCR system with R134a. Ask Our Pros-Owner Assistance - NO DIY advice will be given. If not, you just don't know unless a test is performed. In most cases, the systems used have varied components, designs, and service ports. 5. video clubhouse baseball; nick fairley draft profile; ben davis work pants How an A/C Expansion Valve Works. It is common for eurocar threads to go multiple pages, and as Nick points out - sometimes cool is all you will ever get. The name of the oil is Polyol Ester (POE). Besides, you have a greaseisel. Is that why expansion valves are specific to R12 or R134A? If the water valve is not closing all the way you will have re-heating of the cabin air.The cabin blower was not exactly a powerhouse - it was rated at 200w. Hope this helps. The exact amount will vary with each car. You may be just fine on oil - it depends on what compressor you have & how much oil you put in.A T/C is short for Thermocouple. R1234yf. The only difference I can imagine would be the recharge connection. R12 and R22 are both now banned by the EPA in the United States. I dont know why the cost difference between compressors is so huge, though. R-12 - yellow R-134a - light blue R-22 - green R-402A - light brown (sand) R-402B - olive R-404A - orange R-407C - medium brown R-410A - rose R-507 - teal J Originally Posted by goldNSX. If you are replacing other system components, such as condensers, driers or hoses, you may need to add more a/c refrigerant oil to the system. It has already been clearly stated that R12 is a chemical that damages the earths ozone layer and shouldnt be released into the environment no matter the circumstance. If the system was upgraded by a professional it should have an upgrade sticker. What effect would it have on performance, if any? They would then make short "jumper hoses" to connect to the existing stock hoses, refit your old fan if there is a "pusher" fan, and recharge to specs. But R22 is almost equally damaging. Get to the point where I can walk without crutches2. and feeds it through an expansion valve. R134a refrigerant fittings are different size. The original rubber a/c hose lines in your car will leak out R12 through the hoses lining. An extra half ounce? You'll want the expansion valve matched to whatever refrigerant you're using. difference between r12 and r134a expansion valve why is miles raney not on homestead rescue June 21, 2022. manila mayor candidates 2022 -------------------------"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest." Since you will be using less R134a than R12 you do not want to rely on the driers site glass to determine if the system is full. Instead, top off R12 with R134a refrigerant. Still, I have some simple green, so may as well give it a go. R-12 expansion valves can be re-used, but will not be as efficient as R-134a specific ones because of the slightly different pressure specs of R-12 vs. R-134a. Carefully study the chart and compare the following: To a large extent, the choice is up to you. |. Replace the drier with a drier that has a desiccant that is R134a compatible, use new R134a o-rings. Differences between R-12 and R-134a systems: 1. . The ratings for evaporator temperatures 40F, 20F, -10F, -40F in the capacity tables are in accordance with ANSI/ARI = R134a Charge Level R12 Expansion Valve = 201 830 06 84 R134A Expansion Valve = 201 830 04 84 Is there a difference after all? If ambient is 90 (today) and the output of the condensor is 110, that's pretty good isn't it? The difference between R12 and r134a is the BTU carrying capability. I'll put the relay on for that. Warning: "continue" targeting switch is equivalent to "break".Did you mean to use "continue 2"? I've got a ball valve I'm going to put in the coolant line before the coolant goes through the firewall to the core. And no, you cannot "drain' excess oil out. -------------------------"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest." Expansion Valve. That way I will have reduced the oil by about 1/3 (assuming the oil is mixed evenly through the system). Why wait for 200f on the engine coolant to start the fan? Just because the radiator does not boil people assume that the cooling system is ok. With that said, I would source the TXV from another source such as NAPA just to avoid any problems. R-12 is no longer used or produced in many countries and remaining quantities have skyrocketed in price. Just had knee surgery yesterday, so I"M not exactly hopping around too well. Generally the system will be initially charged with approximately 80% to 85% of the original amount of R12, using R134a. Where would I get some basic info on it, I know nothing about it. By noting the ambient temperature you can look up what the preferred high side pressure should be. I'm having the same concern. Before R12 was replaced with R134a in 1995, it was mostly used in trucks and cars. . When the temperature is reduced to-7C or below, the plants ability to cool the airdrops significantly. A thermostatic expansion valve (TXV) (see Figure 1) is a refrigeration and air conditioning throttling device that controls the amount of refrigerant liquid injected into a system's evaporatorbased on the evaporator outlet temperature and pressurecalled the superheat. Edited: Tue July 17, 2007 at 3:25 AM by bohica2xo, I believe there is only one switch - the refrigerant switch. The flammables have hydrocarbons. If your cars system has a sufficient condenser design and air flow to expel the greater amount of heat extracted by R134a, then by all means you should convert over when the time comes. Is checking the temperature of the in and out of the condensor not the easiest way to tell if it is doing a good job or not? The aux fan seems to be working fine - it switches on occassionally. For instance you can evacuate FRIGC FR-12 into a refrigerant recovery bottle that has R134a in it or visa versa. If you have a perfectly operating system using R12 you do not have to drop what you are doing and convert to R134a. Unfortunately, the oil only mixes with the refrigerant as a liquid. I'll report back on the aux fan on performance next. I used a full can of evap cleaner. I think so. Not osmosis, but you know what I mean). Make sure to get the R12 EXP valve if that is the way you go. This is 11F off the FSM performance graph - vent should be around 50F. Edited: Sat July 14, 2007 at 10:22 PM by fonebone. Inhalation of vapor: Inhaling a large amount of R134a vapor can lead to drowsiness, temporary nervous system depression, and lethargy. Debug the condensor (I am a computer nerd after all!)3. A vacuum pump, a refrigerant recover system, quality service gauge set with both low and high side gagues, and much more besides the lessons to learn what to do and what not to do. On this website we are addressing only R134a and not other suggested drop in replacements. Before we mentioned that you can add approximately 5-6 ounces of ester oil to the compressor. Be sure to test @ 1500 to 2000 engine rpm, and record the ambient temp as well. The general practice of charging the system with 15% less refrigerant adds to the thermal deficiency of R134a. Given two identical vehicles, each with the same weighted amount of refrigerant, the vehicle with the R134a has the capability to remove more heat (measured in btus) from the vehicle than the same type of vehicle using the same amount of R12. R12, on the other hand, has an ozone depletion potential of 1, implying that it can damage the ozone layer. If you you dont have the free time to play then you are better off to pay a technician. Welcome to rxmechanic.com. Paul -------------------------1983 Mercedes 240D on R12 and WVO!1192 Mercedes 300D 2.5 R134a1993 Toyota Pickup converted to R134a. Gain access to our free AOP (Ask a Professional) Section to get real answers for your questions. R12 was once used in many air conditioning units as a refrigerant or cooling agent. After the initial charge the system is then tweeked : you determine the optimum amount of refrigerant to match your system by monitoring the a/c outlet vent temperature and the high side pressure as you add or remove refrigerant.
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